WELT AM SONNTAG: Prime Minister, we Germans are immensely indebted to Hungary for its opening of the iron curtain in 1989. But today the path your country is following scares many Germans. How could it happen that we have become so estranged?
Viktor Orbán: The gratitude for 1989 is reciprocal. The reunification of Germany was in a geopolitical sense the premise for Hungary’s freedom. This is why, in 1990, Hungarians supported German reunification more than even the Germans themselves. And this is why there is veneration for German Chancellor Helmut Kohl in Hungary to this day. Hungarians have a fine sense for geopolitical realities.
WELT AM SONNTAG: Germans misunderstand Hungary?
Orbán: The current alienation is due only to politics. In all other areas of life Hungarian-German relations are excellent. Economic cooperation, culture, tourism. And there is great sympathy for each other.
WELT AM SONNTAG: If politicians are to be blamed, does that also mean you?
Orbán: Part of the blame for the tense mood in our relations indeed lies with me.
WELT AM SONNTAG: Did you ever break agreements that you had with the German government? Or was it the other way round?
Orbán: We Hungarians feel that we made an agreement with Germany in 1989. It included that the Federal Republic supported Hungarian membership in EU and Nato. It also included that Hungary gladly welcomes German investments and technology but will never be a parasite in the EU.
Unlike other Europeans we never did and never will ask for German money without giving something in return. We have always paid our debts on time. We have always supported the European vision of Chancellor Kohl, that the difference in size between individual countries should never mean a difference in rank. All German governments have kept themselves to that, until the problem of migration appeared. The fracture was caused only by the migration crisis. We insist on the right of nations to defend themselves. Germans have another philosophy.
WELT AM SONNTAG: Almost four years have passed since the peak of the migration crisis in 2015.
Orbán: Everything that we experienced in 2015 will happen again, and it will be bigger. Soon the Arab countries will surpass the European countries in population. And I haven’t mentioned Africa yet, where soon there will be more people than can be fed. In that respect Hungary is a frontier country. We live our lives in complete readyness. We have many thousands of soldiers and policemen at our southern border.
Today it depends only on decisions of the Turkish government whether the many millions of refugees that are there will set out for Europe. But we are determined: If they set out we will defend Hungary’s borders! Germany is not a frontier country, it lies at a more protected spot in Europe – and so it feels more secure. Because of this, and because of our differing historical experiences different ways of thinking result.
WELT AM SONNTAG: On our way to this interview we passed many billboards that show EU commission president Jean-Claude Juncker and claim he wants to encourage migration. Juncker belongs to the EPP, your party belongs to the EPP and is just starting the European electoral campaign. You put up billboards against the EPP, but at the same time ask people to vote for it. Is that not contradictory?
Orbán: I don’t see a contradiction. The problem of the EPP is that it has become too big. The EVP members from the Nordic countries are much closer to Macron than to the Germans. We Hungarians feel we are something like the CSU of the EPP. Unfortunately, here too, the subject of migration has sharpened the differences.
WELT AM SONNTAG: Does that justify presenting the President of the EU commission as an enemy of the Hungarian people?
Orbán: The reputation of Mr. Juncker is completely different in the West than in the East. In Western Europe the EPP campaigns with the selling point that her new Spitzenkandidat Manfred Weber will continue the work of Mr. Juncker. That would be political suicide in Central Europe, because here Mr Juncker doesn’t enjoy much respect anymore. If the EPP wants to win in Central Europe, it must say: Mr. Juncker is the past. Mr. Weber is the future.
WELT AM SONNTAG: Already last November Juncker demanded that Fidesz be expulsed from EPP. Are the billboards a payback for that?
Orbán: I don’t like the politics of vengeance. Vengeance is always backwards-looking, and pulls one back with it. Juncker is a kind man. So kind that one forgives him even the silliest gestures. Although I am a streetfighter, there is no personal antipathy between us. I don’t like his views, especially his proximity to socialist economic policies and his support for migration. I do perceive his attempt to have us thrown out of the EPP as a personal disloyalty. No-one can expect from us to not react to disloyalty, even if it is the disloyalty of such a kind man. Such are the rules of politics.
WELT AM SONNTAG: The poster that shows Juncker next to US investor Geore Soros reminds me of pictures that I know from history books. The presentation and context carry antisemitic features.
Orbán: You say that because you are German. Every nation carries its history around with it like a rucksack, but what’s in the rucksack differs from nation to nation. These pictures don’t remind anyone of antisemitism in Hungary. And we don’t view our Jewish compatriots primarily as Jews but as Hungarians. A campaign focused in on specific persons is not unusual in the Anglosaxon world, and here neither. It seems to me this is a German problem.
WELT AM SONNTAG: But the campaign against Soros has long become international. We in Germany also experience it. Our newspaper DIE WELT and individual reporters get personally accused of being directed by Soros. In Germany these accusations come from the radical right, who partly justify those allegations with your campaign.
Orbán: The international aspect doesn’t interest me all that much. Hungarian Jews enjoy the protection of the government. Also we conduct a consistently pro-Israeli foreign policy. Because we are convinced that the existence of a Jewish state is not only important for European Jews, but that the security of Israel is a key question for the stability of Europe.
In the past there was an antisemitism of the christian right, also in Hungary. But we have done away with that. Today antisemitism has assumed a new character: The enmity against Jews and against Israel is carried into our societies by migration. That’s why antisemitism increases in Western Europe, while it continues to decrease in Central Europe. Until now Europe has no concept against this. But we urgently need one!
WELT AM SONNTAG: Your campaign against Soros doesn’t fit here.
Orbán: It’s not my doing that the Hungarian citizen Soros is of Jewish origin! That lies with God. But it happens to be that in Hungary Soros incarnates the ugly face of globalism. On the one side stands Hungary, represented by its elected political representatives. On the other side the international NGOs financed by Soros and elected by no-one, who want us to follow a different migration policy. This is, from our side, not a campaign but normal behaviour.
WELT AM SONNTAG: On your poster for the European elections we see Soros, a man who lives in the USA, and Juncker, a man who in a few months will be a political pensioner. That’s not a normal electoral campaign, it is a campaign to generate a certain mood in the Hungarian public.
Orbán: Politics is not a beauty contest and we make clear what’s at stake. There are elections where democracy is at stake. There are elections where the economy is at stake. At these elections migration policy is at stake. And both of them represent the policy that is friendly towards migration.
WELT AM SONNTAG: But Soros and Juncker aren’t even candidates...
Orbán: … yet we must inform for what they stand. In the next phase our party campaign will begin and then you will find someone else on the posters: Mr. Timmermanns. We will send Mr. Juncker into retirement and Mr. Timmermanns will replace him on our posters.
WELT AM SONNTAG: The Dutch social democrat EU commissioner responsible for the rule of law. Will you akso show him next to Soros?
Orbán: The role of Soros in european politics cannot be disregarded, and everyone hast he right to know that Timmermanns professedly is his ally.
WELT AM SONNTAG: You say: Christian democracy is not liberal, christian democracy is illiberal. What do you mean by that?
Orbán: When I started in politics 30 years ago, there where still christian democrats, social democrats and liberals. Since then, liberals have fought and won a battle for words. First the left accepted that democracy must always be a liberal one. Whenever liberal parties happen to not win an election, they immediately proclaim the end of democracy. That forces christian democracy and social democracy to give up their arms. Then social democracy dies, we are currently are witnessing its last gasps in Europe. If christian democracy doesn’t defend itself against the adoption of liberal terms and concepts, it will also perish.
WELT AM SONNTAG: CDU chair woman Annegret Kramp-Karrenbauer calls your accusations against Juncker „incomprehensible and untenable“. You would „weaken and harm the EPP“.
Orbán: How our campaign works in Germany, Mrs. Kramp-Karrenbauer maybe knows better than me. But here in Central Europe two problems can not be swept under the carpet: Brexit and migration, that are both connected to the name of Juncker. Weber’s name should on the contrary stand for changes that Europe urgently needs.
WELT AM SONNTAG: Did Weber tell you that he does strive for such changes in European migration policy that you deem right?
Orbán: We have spoken about this a lot. Our candidate is a great person. And I believe it would be good for Europe to have a Bavarian at the helm. Weber’s candidacy is one of he most courageous political undertakings that I have ever seen. Until now only such politicians have led the EU commission that earlier were president, prime minister of minister in their own country. Weber would be the first where that is not the case. But in Europe it’s not enough to win an election.
WELT AM SONNTAG: What are you hinting at?
Orbán: After the election the haggling and dealmaking starts. There will be other candidates for the job of leading the commission. There will be attempts to push Weber aside. I have made clear that we will support Weber until the end. But he will face a difficult time.
WELT AM SONNTAG: Your view of Weber surprises. After all he did vote for a rule of law procedure against Hungary. You have said that he got hoodwinked into doing that. Do you doubt his intellectual capabilities?
Orbán: No, because Berlin is a bigger city than Munich.
WELT AM SONNTAG: I didn’t understand that. Weber voted for a report that states that in Hungary the freedom of religion, press freedom and the freedom of assembly are in a bad shape. On that basis the EU has started a procedure. And you say, he is your man?
Orbán: Weber has said that this procedure is a good chance for a constructive dialogue with Hungary. That’s why he voted for it.
WELT AM SONNTAG: Many people, also Investors, say they worry about the independence of Hungary’s justice system. With such a strong majority as you enjoy, doesn’t one need effective checks and balances?
Orbán: We are talking about the modification of a law in order to introduce administrative courts, and the rules have been taken word by word from the corresponding law in Austria. Therefore I believe the Hungarian justice system conforms to European standards.
WELT AM SONNTAG: Your closest ally in Germany has always been the CSU. But now it’s new chairman Markus Söder has commented on your campaign even more harshly than CDU-chief Kramp-Kar-enbauer. Have you now lost even the CSU to liberalism?
Orbán: No, we like to listen to the views of our Bavarian friends, but we need to decide according to our own interests. Our historical friendship remains unimpaired.
WELT AM SONNTAG: EPP members from other countries want to expulse Fidesz from the EPP. The votes oft he German CDU/CSU delegates would probably be decisive. Just now your chief of staff Gergely Gulyás secretly met the CDU chairwoman in Berlin. Did Mrs. Kramp-Karrenbauer tell him wether she wants to expel you or not?
Orbán: Between the CDU and Fidesz we have a „structured dialogue“ where leading representatives of both sides meet on a regular basis to clarify on which questions we are in agreement, and where we differ. At this visit the decision was taken to continue this dialogue. I look forward to soon be meeting Mrs. Kramp-Karrenbauer in person - we will meet in March in Brussels.
WELT AM SONNTAG: Will you get along better with Mrs. Kramp-Karrenbauer than with Mrs. Merkel?
Orbán: For the moment the what dominates in me is a feeling of loss regarding the departure of Mrs. Merkel. Obviously we didn’t agree in every area, especially when it came to the subject of migration. But this chancellor decisively contributed to keeping Europe united. That is a great task, and it will not get smaller in the future.
WELT AM SONNTAG: Do you even want to stay in the EPP? Some in Berlin believe that you are provoking your own expulsion, in order to then thankfully adopt the role of victim.
Orbán: It was Helmut Kohl who invited us into the EPP. We regarded our membership then as a great honor, and still regard it as a great honor. Our goal was and is to strengthen the party. Here in Central Europe we are experts on power techniques of the Left. The Left doesn’t attack Hungary for it’s own sake, but to weaken the EPP. If we are gone they will attack the Italians, and then the Austrians. There will always be someone whom they attack, it is the essence of their power technique. That’s what is called salami tactics and its aim is to weaken the EPP on the European level, so that the Socialists, the Left can take over the leadership of Europe. So this is not a struggle about ideas, it is about power. One would need to understand that. Not everyone understands this, but in the political scientific literature they are characterized, following Lenin, as „useful idiots“. While they believe they are fighting an intellectual battle, they serve the power interests of others, of our opponents.
WELT AM SONNTAG: Critical Christian Democrats are useful idiots?
Orbán: Those who prefer a division of the EPP to its unity – yes. I have no sympathy for our scandinavian EPP members, but I would never propose to expel them. I know that this would only be grist to the mill of the Left, and that by doing so I would be preparing the ground for a takeover of power by the Left in Europe. It may be that Mr. Juncker proposes to expel us, but I would never propose the expulsion of the Luxemburgians. I said it clearly at the summit in Helsinki: Criticism is important, diversity is important, but unity is the most important. Politics is not a debate club, it is also a struggle for power, and if we don’t want the Left to lead Europe, then we need to defend the position of the EVP. We stand a good chance to succeed. But right now we ourselves damage our chances.
WELT AM SONNTAG: If Fidesz gets expelled from the EPP –will you enter into any kind of alliance or cooperation with the Italian Lega?
Orbán: I don’t like people who wear suspenders and a belt at the same time. One needs to have one strategy. We are in the EPP and we remain there. There is no plan B.
WELT AM SONNTAG: But you don’t exclude that Fidesz will look for new partners in the case of an exclusion from the EPP?
Orbán: Such an exclusion is not a rational alternative. Therefore today this lies beyond the limit of our imagination.
WELT AM SONNTAG: To conclude I would like to ask wether there are unbridgeable differences in the German and Hungarian views about the future of Europe.
Orbán: What we have in common is more than what divides us. I believe the Germans understand exactly that if we create a socialist Europe, this will also ruin Germany. If we eliminate the idea of competition from the economic thinking in Europe, or limit the room for competition, then we harm everybody, but also Germany. The Vision that is the opposite of the Vision of the EPP means a socialist Europe with enormous state budgets, high budget deficits, growing public debt and the distrubution of money without demanding performance. Neither the Germans nor the Hungarians want this. That is a strong agreement of interests. We also are in agreement that we want to saveguard the democratic character of Europe, which means that every people must decide for itself in which direction their countries – and thus also Europe – should progress. The differences are about the subject of migration. These differences are not unbridgeable, but they can be managed.
WELT AM SONNTAG: What do you mean?
Orbán: We need a method how we can live together despite differing viewpoints. The questions that arise from migration should therefore be taken away from the commission and handed to a dedicated, seperate council of the interior ministers concerned. A seperate body needs to be created for this, where only the interior ministers of the Schengen zone would sit. Just like there is a separate council of the finance ministers of the Euro zone. The interiour ministers of the Schengen zone would need to turn this into a very strong council, where questions that concern the whole Schengen zone would be decided in the manner of experts and not of politicians.
